qestions on course D acupuncture

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Reverend Tutor Dr David Du..
As I have learned by your recent teaching course AB how essential is diagnosis in Chinese acupuncture.
An acupuncturist who is not making diagnosis will have very limited choice and in most cases has bad effects if he uses cookbook prescriptions of acupoints for symptomatic treatment.
My question is how to evaluate symptomatic prescriptions after differential diagnosis has been made;
I have in my hand 33 primary Chinese books from Peking , shanghai ,jiangsu , canton , jinlin , tienjin Academies of TCM for treatment of symptoms and I want your opinion if it is fitful to have a single look after diagnosis..
I understand that I have to study the essential materials for this from course C .. and surely I don’t believe on ready formulas ..any way..

I feel nice by reading the new material of course D .. many things come to unite by recent courses ..

I wait your advise and your opinion
Your student
Denis Voglis

tutor

Dear Denis,

I'm so much embrassed by your compliments
I'm not really at such level as you thought of, I'm only an ordinary teaching professional of traditional Chinese medicine I don't think I have anything special or have more profoundness than other TCM professionals in one way or another.

I like Taoist way, but I couldn't do well with it. I didn't quite catch what I said, I did mean some acupuncture practitioners could do acupuncture in the Taoist way, but I'm not that good.
I do love some of Taoist theories, and read something of the Taoism. But it's not so easy to combine Taoism with traditional Chinese medicine in all the ways.

Yes, it's very good to read those classical literatures of traditional Chinese medicine, and I think you may get to more Taoist knowledge.

Now let's discuss your questions.

1). In majority of cases, countralateral needling is not really taken, but when the treatment is long-term, and the effect is not really satisfactory, infrequently some acupuncture physicians would do the contralateral needling as an alternative way.
Or, sometimes, the prescription is too big, we may do less points at one time, so we could use some points in the contralateral side while some on the affected side. I.e. more meridians but less points.

2). Usually, the monarch point should be thrusted first!
But it's also up to where the points are located. The general way is to do the needling from top to bottom.
Certainly some physician would do the opposite way.

3). I didn't quite catch what you meant, and I presume you mean the prescription should be made in such a way of combination. If you did mean that, basically you are right.
But very often, we couldn't do so many points at once, maybe only 4-5 points, or 5-6 points. It all depends.

4) Have you ever tried SP 6, PC 6, and ST 8? Maybe you could have a try.





[quote:ecd01cacc0]
I am glad that you give special attention to the Taoist way of making acupuncture.. although ancient Chinese medical books pointed out the way to live in harmony with TAO.
Since long before up to date I am a love reader of these ancient medical books just as : su wen / ling shu / nan jing / bin gu mai jing / etc ..
I have some queries about selecting distant local points on making a prescription ..
1.What causes of disease determine the selection of left side points to treat disorders of right side and vice versa ; .. and what on bilateral selection of points;
2.when I read a prescription just as in common cold (Wind-heat syndrome) Acupoints: Dazhui (DU 14), Quchi (LI 1l), Hegu (LI 4), Yuji (LU 10) and Waiguan (SJ 5) I must start the needling treatment from the first Dazhui (DU 14), and step by step right up to the last one;…
3. written prescriptions are readily an harmoniously presentation of combinations of : above with the below / exterior interior /local distal ;
4.I have a case 58 years old woman with facial spasm on the left side and inability to sleep well .. spasm starting from her eye and spreading down up to her nose .. I used the acupuncture special e- weekly prescription just as SI 3 with special manipulations ..adding ST4 / ST2 /LR3.. after 4 treatments every other day the results are fine for just one day.
On fifth treatment I combined SI3 point with BL 62 on the right side first and then on the left side making a bilateral combination of BL 62 then I used very carefully the acupoint of BL 1 on the left side .. the results are very good and as it seems the spasm is very low with her sleep is improved best.. and with stability for treatment to treatment .. I would like to ask you dear tutor if I can use other points you suggest me for much stability on this treatment or to end this treatment just as I followed ;

By the way I feel I am ready to participate on the middle exam for Course D .. [/quote:ecd01cacc0]

tutor

Reverend and Dear tutor David Du
I was surprised with your way you reach this level of understanding on traditional Chinese medicine.. I have to say that your tutorial instructions are unique with profound depths!!
I am glad that you give special attention to the Taoist way of making acupuncture.. although ancient Chinese medical books pointed out the way to live in harmony with TAO.
Since long before up to date I am a love reader of these ancient medical books just as : su wen / ling shu / nan jing / bin gu mai jing / etc ..
I have some queries about selecting distant local points on making a prescription ..
1.What causes of disease determine the selection of left side points to treat disorders of right side and vice versa ; .. and what on bilateral selection of points;
2.when I read a prescription just as in common cold (Wind-heat syndrome) Acupoints: Dazhui (DU 14), Quchi (LI 1l), Hegu (LI 4), Yuji (LU 10) and Waiguan (SJ 5) I must start the needling treatment from the first Dazhui (DU 14), and step by step right up to the last one;…
3. written prescriptions are readily an harmoniously presentation of combinations of : above with the below / exterior interior /local distal ;
4.I have a case 58 years old woman with facial spasm on the left side and inability to sleep well .. spasm starting from her eye and spreading down up to her nose .. I used the acupuncture special e- weekly prescription just as SI 3 with special manipulations ..adding ST4 / ST2 /LR3.. after 4 treatments every other day the results are fine for just one day.
On fifth treatment I combined SI3 point with BL 62 on the right side first and then on the left side making a bilateral combination of BL 62 then I used very carefully the acupoint of BL 1 on the left side .. the results are very good and as it seems the spasm is very low with her sleep is improved best.. and with stability for treatment to treatment .. I would like to ask you dear tutor if I can use other points you suggest me for much stability on this treatment or to end this treatment just as I followed ;

By the way I feel I am ready to participate on the middle exam for Course D ..

With best regards
You have my best wishes for a nice and happy day
Your student
Denis Voglis

tutor

Hey, Denis,
What are you talking about? I'm not that good

Sorry for talk to you a bit late!

Now, let's discuss your questions.

1). The energy running embodied by the five-shu points is one way of understanding by the ancient Chinese acupuncturists, it's rather a local running of the energy instead of the circulation in the whole meridian system. That's my personal understanding.
Maybe they saw this local running, so they found the five-shu points.

Yes, it is the Jing-Well points of both Yin and Yang meridians, the same for the other types.

He-Sea points are special, only those of Yang meridians are used to treat the disorders of Fu organs.

But that's only the general description of the indications of the Five-Shu points.

In fact, the Five-Shu points are often used in terms of the mother-child relations, so the He-Sea points of the Yin meridians are still well in use for disorders of the same meridian or the related mother or child meridian, according to the excess or deficient disorders respectively.

2). That's something very interesting!

It is said that spleen is the dominator for the muscles, so it has one more collateral to be related with muscles. In fact, there is another opinion that there is still one more collateral, that's the one for stomach, it's called Xuli, it's only one saying. That's perhaps based on the theory that the spleen and stomach are the foundation of the postnatal existance, so they should have more collaterals to be connected with the body (the real postnatal existance ) .

3). That's not really true!
Except some specially mentioned points, majority of acupoints have the effects for both reinforcing and reducing!
In fact many distal points are used for tonification!!!
E.g. ST 36, KI 3, SP 6, etc.

Personally I think it's quite up to the techniques.

In fact, that's the difference between acupuncture and herbal medicine!

To use herbs, doctors couldn't do something for help besides to prescribe the herbs, while to do acupuncture, doctors could do a lot, and personally, I think the needling technique is even more important than the points prescription.

As I know of, some good acupuncturists, don't use many points, only 6-7 points for each patients, some even don't use these regular points, they would use their own way, maybe the Taoist way, or some other way.

But the knowledge listed in different books is the basis, only one has grasped this basis, you could make your own way! And only when one has acquired your own way, you could be an outstanding acupuncturist.

I have my own way, but I know it's still not a good way, it's a just a basis.

So at moment, if you think you are not so good, you may use a little more points, or gradually you think you may use less points to achieve the same effect, you could reduce the number of points for the patients.











[quote:e1d76ab07c]Reverend and dear Dr David Du
I would like to thank you a lot for your profound answers concerning traditional Chinese medicine. it is rare indeed on these days to have a teacher as you are ..
Studying the course D ACUPUNCTURE I have some queries concerning specific acupoints .. just as :
1.five shu acupoints of four extremities:
.Why is there existing a course of energy stream (jing-well / ying-spring / shu-stream / jing-river / he-sea / ) differed to the course of meridian ?
.Is written in the material of study that ” Jing-well Points are indicated in mental illness related to the zang organs; You mean jing well points of both yin and yang meridians ? Ying-spring; Shu-stream and Jing-river Points are indicated in disorders along the outer course of the affected meridians.” You mean on both yin and yang meridians “He-Sea Points are indicated in problems related to the fu organs,” it is obvious that this indicated for yang meridians.. but what happens with he-sea points on yin meridians?
2.Luo- connecting points..
Why are there two acupoints for spleen meridian just as fenglong (st 40) and major Luo acupoint dabao (sp 21) ?
3. Selection of local / distal acupoints:
In local points the application is most often used for deficiency syndromes? .. and if this is correct can I select them first of all by the act of tonification ..( more points in local area and less in disbal area)..?... as for first of all selection of distal acupoins is most often for excess conditions ? (using less local points and more distal points to calm the hyperactivity of excess syndromes) ?...

You have my best regards
And wish you have a nice day..
Denis Voglis[/quote:e1d76ab07c]

tutor

[quote:e82e84b822="Dionisios"]Reverend and dear Dr David Du
I would like to thank you a lot for your profound answers concerning traditional Chinese medicine. it is rare indeed on these days to have a teacher as you are ..

You have my best regards
And wish you have a nice day..
Denis Voglis[/quote:e82e84b822]

tutor

[quote:7fa2dbeba5="Dionisios"]Reverend and dear Dr David Du
I would like to thank you a lot for your profound answers concerning traditional Chinese medicine. it is rare indeed on these days to have a teacher as you are ..
Studying the course D ACUPUNCTURE I have some queries concerning specific acupoints .. just as :
1.five shu acupoints of four extremities:
.Why is there existing a course of energy stream (jing-well / ying-spring / shu-stream / jing-river / he-sea / ) differed to the course of meridian ?
.Is written in the material of study that ” Jing-well Points are indicated in mental illness related to the zang organs; You mean jing well points of both yin and yang meridians ? Ying-spring; Shu-stream and Jing-river Points are indicated in disorders along the outer course of the affected meridians.” You mean on both yin and yang meridians “He-Sea Points are indicated in problems related to the fu organs,” it is obvious that this indicated for yang meridians.. but what happens with he-sea points on yin meridians?
2.Luo- connecting points..
Why are there two acupoints for spleen meridian just as fenglong (st 40) and major Luo acupoint dabao (sp 21) ?
3. Selection of local / distal acupoints:
In local points the application is most often used for deficiency syndromes? .. and if this is correct can I select them first of all by the act of tonification ..( more points in local area and less in disbal area)..?... as for first of all selection of distal acupoins is most often for excess conditions ? (using less local points and more distal points to calm the hyperactivity of excess syndromes) ?...

You have my best regards
And wish you have a nice day..
Denis Voglis[/quote:7fa2dbeba5]

tutor

Reverend and dear Dr David Du
I would like to thank you a lot for your profound answers concerning traditional Chinese medicine. it is rare indeed on these days to have a teacher as you are ..
Studying the course D ACUPUNCTURE I have some queries concerning specific acupoints .. just as :
1.five shu acupoints of four extremities:
.Why is there existing a course of energy stream (jing-well / ying-spring / shu-stream / jing-river / he-sea / ) differed to the course of meridian ?
.Is written in the material of study that ” Jing-well Points are indicated in mental illness related to the zang organs; You mean jing well points of both yin and yang meridians ? Ying-spring; Shu-stream and Jing-river Points are indicated in disorders along the outer course of the affected meridians.” You mean on both yin and yang meridians “He-Sea Points are indicated in problems related to the fu organs,” it is obvious that this indicated for yang meridians.. but what happens with he-sea points on yin meridians?
2.Luo- connecting points..
Why are there two acupoints for spleen meridian just as fenglong (st 40) and major Luo acupoint dabao (sp 21) ?
3. Selection of local / distal acupoints:
In local points the application is most often used for deficiency syndromes? .. and if this is correct can I select them first of all by the act of tonification ..( more points in local area and less in disbal area)..?... as for first of all selection of distal acupoins is most often for excess conditions ? (using less local points and more distal points to calm the hyperactivity of excess syndromes) ?...

You have my best regards
And wish you have a nice day..
Denis Voglis

tutor

Hi Denis,
You are welcome to come to Beijing to see how acupuncture is working in China, most probably you will be disappointed , for there are no mysteries or miracles herein.

Yes, our body is indeed a miracle! And the mystery of the body has not been well understood by the modern science. However, I don't doubt the achievements that have been obtained by the modern sciences, though I'm sticking firmly to traditional Chinese medicine. So, I think I still need more knowledge of western medicine and modern sciences.

As you have said, a good understanding could be mainly achieved on the basis of some other standards.

As the patient you have mentioned who's got the epilectic seizures after stopping smoking, I think sometimes the drastic change of some daily life habits would lead to some disorders. It happened I had a similar case, that's a man, in his late 60s, and tried hard to stop smoking after having smoked for abut 40 years and he was quite successful to have a good effect for not smoking for couple of months, but suddenly he's got heart attack, without any prodrome signs. Doctors of western medicine couldn't find any caustive factors, but just found that he's given up smoking completely in a short period of time, and they decided that this drastic change could be the inducing factor for the occurence of the heart attack.

Anyway, our body is really complicated, so far nobody or nothing could understand fully our body, we could only try our best to help our patients by means of the traditional Chinese medical knowledge.

tutor

Dear tutor Dr David Du…

I would like to thank you for your kind words.. You gave me much courage to continue ..
I have seen how this marvelous art is working when I was trying
(many years before) to cut smoking to a client and the success was dual .. she stops smoking and after many days he came to thank me for a problem she had just as epileptic seizures .. I don’t know why but this was just happened .. many cases was successful and aside from many pitfalls I try hard to be more specific on my treatments .. all success come form the level of understanding and feeling the patient..
I concluded that there is not knowledge just understanding in Chinese medicine and as an art has many differences from western way of thinking and obviously in medicine which its base is standard knowledge in a world that everything is changing continuously..

By the way I am planning to come in china next year to have internship in the hospital … until then I will try to be good with my study and my clients ..

You have my best wishes for a good day
Denis Voglis

tutor

Hi Denis,
You are really sounding too pessimistic!!!
I think you are doing well

My personal opinion (not really advice ) is you should still see a patient in a holist view!
To do acupuncture, in fact, it's much easier to deal with the local symptoms, if you cannot decide what to do, you may just use local points or Ashi points
Is it simple?

For sure there are some good experience for dealing with some symptoms and signs, which probably have not been ercorded in the textbooks or the teaching materials you have got already, so what you need to do, I think, is to learn directly from the good acupuncturists, and to summarize some experience by your own efforts.
Sounds a little difficult!
That's the fact we have to face.
Practice makes perfect! The proverb tells a great truth!